Questions 11 October 2016

11 October

13:55

Mike Hedges

Does the First Minister agree with me that what is important is outcomes not inputs? And will the First Minister join me in congratulating Swansea council on record-breaking GCSE results, and Pentrehafod School and Morriston Comprehensive School—two Schools Challenge Cymru schools—on their excellent GCSE results?

13:56

Carwyn Jones

Yes, I do very much welcome where Pathways to Success schools have improved with the support of Schools Challenge Cymru. I’d also like to congratulate Pentrehafod and Morriston, which I understand have recorded their best ever sets of results while taking part in the challenge, and the Member is rightly proud of the comprehensives in his area.

Communities First

14:54

Mike Hedges thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. First of all, I’d like to express my disappointment at the statement by the Cabinet Secretary. I believe that Communities First is doing an excellent job in my constituency. But I’ve said for years that Communities First and Flying Start should be based on communities, not driven by the way the Office of National Statistics decides to collect data. That’s generally been rejected by different Ministers, including the current one. Can I start off with a plus? I welcome the continuation of the Lift scheme. The question I have is: after Communities First, what is going to happen to the following: work done on reducing utility bills; smoking cessation schemes and promoting smoke-free homes; promoting exercise and physical activity; the weight loss programmes; the clothes recycling; the food-growing and eat well schemes; the personal financial planning; the family learning; supporting children’s learning; homework clubs and all the other excellent work currently being done by Communities First in my constituency?

14:55

Carl Sargeant

’m grateful to the Member for raising the issues about the things that Communities First does really well, and I also celebrate the work from many communities that has been engaged in by staff and volunteers right across the 52 areas within Wales. But, as I’ve said, we have to consider the time and place now, and I think that there are much stronger interventions that we can lead on through other programmes. And all the things that the Member raises are important; they’re important to him and the community he represents. I’m not saying we should get rid of them either; I’m saying that we have to have a new approach to tackling the issues around prevention and early intervention, as I’ve listed in my statement. I look forward to working with the Member and other communities as to how we can best do this. I think a lot of this is already driven by local people that know their communities very well, working alongside other organisations such as Public Health Wales, who have a good, strong record on adverse childhood experiences and tackling some of the issues that the Member raises today. There are other ways of delivering these services, and I look forward to the discussion that will ensue post this statement.

Questions 4 October 2016

Questions and Speeches

4 October 2016

Swansea Bay City Region

13:30 - Mike Hedges

1. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Swansea Bay City Region? OAQ(5)0171(FM)

13:30 - Carwyn Jones

Yes. Llywydd, I understand that you’ve given your permission for questions 1 and 4 to be grouped. I can say that progress continues to be made in building collaboration and partnership around shared priorities for jobs and growth.

13:30 - Mike Hedges

I believe that the Swansea bay city region is developing very well as a vehicle for economic development. I, however, see a more strategic role for it in things like a structure plan. Does the First Minister agree, and will the First Minister look to use the footprint of the Swansea bay city region for Welsh Government-funded public services?

13:31 - Carwyn Jones

The city region has tremendous opportunity. I’d encourage all those looking at a city deal for Swansea bay to put that bid in before the Chancellor’s autumn statement. It is important that local government work together in order for that to happen. We’ve seen this happen in the capital region. The same thing needs to happen in Swansea bay as well. But, yes, as part of the work that the local government Secretary has been carrying through in the summer, we are looking at how best to regionalise the delivery of services across Wales where that is the most effective way of doing so. Local Government 16:11 - Mike Hedges Can I also thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement? Councils in Britain are the largest in Europe, as the Cabinet Secretary knows. John Stewart has said ‘the average size of a British local authority is 10 times the average size of local authorities in the rest of Europe.’ At a Gorwel meeting last week, chaired by David Melding, it was stated that Slovenia, a country roughly the size of Wales, has approximately 10 times the number of councils. Do large authorities perform better? Birmingham, which is the largest authority in Britain and one of the largest, if not the largest in Europe, has had serious problems with its social services. In Wales, three local authorities—Swansea, Cardiff and Rhondda Cynon Taf—make up approximately a quarter of the population of Wales. Do these authorities perform better than medium-sized and smaller authorities? I have yet to see any evidence to say so. If the Minister can identify evidence that I can see to show that larger authorities are performing better, I’d be very pleased to see it. If we look at health, is there any evidence that the two largest health boards, Betsi Cadawaladr and Cardiff and the Vale, perform better than the others? There are two things that are guaranteed to annoy me when I hear them on the radio. The one is, ‘Wales is the same size as Birmingham,’ despite the fact it’s three times the size, and the other one is that larger organisations are better than smaller ones, despite the inability to provide any evidence to support that. Of course, before the 1970s’ reorganisation, there were lots of little local authorities in Wales: Llwchwr Urban District Council, Gower Rural District Council, and, perhaps the most famous of all, Tredegar Urban District Council, where Nye Bevan was a member. Big can also mean bureaucracy, big can mean inefficiency and big can mean remoteness. With local authorities, there’s a right size for different things. If you look at planning, for example, the right size for development control is nowhere near the right size for a structure plan. Can I raise two points and questions on what the Minister has put forward— 16:13 - Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer You can ask two questions, Mike, very briefly, but you can’t make points. 16:13 - Mike Hedges Okay. Can I ask two questions very briefly? [Laughter.] Why do we want to have a city region and another region for services? Surely, the city region is the footprint. I think that you might want to sub-divide within the footprint, but having it across—. Swansea and Neath Port Talbot will be called Janus, because we look east for some things and west for the others. It just does not make a lot of sense and it doesn’t work for building up relationships, where we work with Bridgend for some things, Carmarthenshire for others. Can I say that, of course, in terms of health, which is a part of the public service, although not under your remit, the ARCH programme, for example, has started to get the area to the west of Swansea working with Swansea? The final question I’ve got is that we’ve seen in health a situation where we’ve had primary and secondary health put together: has that actually worked in getting them to work closer? I think that the answer most people will come up with is, ‘No, it hasn’t.’ I think that what it has done is move money from primary care into secondary care, and I don’t think that’s what people particularly wanted. You’ve only got to listen to primary care practitioners, who’ll tell you exactly how badly done by they are and that all the money goes into hospitals. So, can I finish by saying: will the Minister look again at having the two-area model and look towards the city region as the basic footprint for public services? 16:15 - Mark Drakeford Could I thank Mike Hedges, who I always listen to very carefully on these matters? I’ve said to him before: it’s never been a claim of mine that size is the determining factor in the success of public services; nor, however, do I think that size is an irrelevant factor in the way that things are organised. Size does bring some advantages in some aspects. So, I don’t rule it out, but I don’t think it’s the factor that overrides all others. I said in my statement that, when I said to you that you could have three city regions discharging some functions and another set of regional arrangements for other functions, that was what was said to me during the visits that I have made since May and June of last year. I’m not wedded to that dual model, and I’m very happy to have further detailed discussions. He says to me that the city region is the footprint. Well, is it the footprint for social services in the Cardiff capital city region, where there are 10 local authorities, with three different health boards serving some very diverse populations? I don’t know. I just put the question there for us to discuss. Finally, the point that I think he makes about primary and secondary healthcare being brought together in single health boards is that organisational boundaries do not, by themselves, dissolve professional boundaries. In that sense, I certainly do agree with him.